grains. Secondly, they had these large corridors in the villages capable of inflicting the famine.
But it is absolutely true, the Ukrainian operation is a separate and extra, and greater horror than the—
Mr, MARCHISHIN: It wasn’t a direct outcome of the collectivization, it was a
specific policy.
Dr. CONQUEST: A special operation.
Mr. MARCHISHIN: Okay, there was a question over here.
Dr. WERES: Dr. Conquest, could you briefly describe the present day Soviet posi¬tion as to whether the famine happened and so forth, and offer any thoughts you might have about what this commission may do to contribute to a change in that position?
Dr. CONQUEST: Well, I don’t know how anybody makes them admit that the famine took place and what the Commission can do to make them tell the truth. It is rather surprising, in some ways, that they don’t-that they will not admit the facts of their past And this is part of their history, part of the history of the Party, it is their own background that we are talking about. Gromyko joined the Party in 1931, when it was engaged in these operations, as its main object. It would be a great effort for them to start telling the truth.

And I don’t myself expect them to do so. They haven’t even told the truth about the dekulakization, which they have at least hinted about. There have been odd remarks past, but nothing whatever about the famine. They simply deny it. And oc¬casionally say there were a few food shortages.

Now, I think that is what makes the Commission so important and necessary, be¬cause their denials not only persist in the Soviet Union, but still have some effect abroad. And the Commission can and is getting the facts and putting them past dis¬pute. The more it is registered and irrefutably registered in the West, the less chance they have of getting away with their falsehoods for any real length of time.

Most people in the Soviet Union, the earlier generation, know all about this, they are simply not allowed to say it And there are people in the Soviet Union, even offi¬cials, official writers and people, I don’t mean apparatchiks who have shown that they would wish the truth about the past to be told, because it puts them at a great disad¬vantage, if you are a historian, or a writer being forced to lie all the time. It is a disad¬vantage which you don’t like.

So, there is some tendency to ask for more truth. But on the other hand, you’ve got the system, you have created it by killing 14 million people. It is a great moral al¬batross around your neck. It is very difficult to say I am frankly sorry, I won’t do it again. It takes big moral effort, as well as any other effort, as well as ideological effort to tell the truth.
Mr. MARCHISHIN: Okay, I want to thank Dr. Conquest for his testimony here today. We appreciate it greatly and we wish him great success with his book project. Dr. CONQUEST: Thank you.
Mr. MARCHISHIN: The next part of our agenda is the testimony of the eyewit¬nesses. And to start that off, we have hired on our staff Sue Ellen Webber, who is heading up the oral testimony project. And she has prepared a report for us, and I would like to ask here before we invite the witnesses to testify, for her to come for¬ward and to present her report.